Joshi Spotlight: Bull Nakano Interviews Chigusa Nagayo

Hey All! I have something totally different for you today- a series of interviews Bull Nakano did on her YouTube channel with various women’s wrestling stars! These were recapped by my buddy MoskowDiskow (on Twitter) and posted here with his permission. Why am I posting someone else’s work on here? Well I find this super, SUPER fascinating, and I want a more people to see it, in a more permanent spot. Also I’m doing a 2-week vacation and I need extra content without having to fall way behind, lol. This will feature all of his writing, with my additions (ie. notes on what’s been mentioned) in Bold.

BULL INTERVIEWS CHIGUSA NAGAYO:
Jab’s Notes: Chigusa is of course the all-time biggest star in women’s wrestling history. She was the big star of the 1980s joshi boom, as her “EveryGirl” persona drew legions of schoolgirls to Zenjo (AJW), as the evil Dump Matsumoto and her stable of bullies took advantage of contemporary issues in Japanese society (the bullying epidemic- Chigusa was a stand-in for the fans and the Gokuaku-Domei were stand-ins for the mean bullies they feared) and made bucketloads of money. Dave Meltzer idiotically stated that Rossy Ogawa was responsible for all of this, a blatant lie told to him by his Japan contact Fumi Saito (a friend of Ogawa’s).

– They start with some very polite introductions and Bull jokes that she’s nervous (Nagayo is her senior) (Jab’s Notes: This is super-fascinating to me, and reflects how serious the “Senpai/Seniority” system is in Japan- that a 55-56 year old retired woman would pretend to be nervous around a senior). Bull immediately goes into a story of when she was a rookie, and was excited to have been sat next to Nagayo on the team bus. They were passing by some apartments on the freeway and Chigusa told Bull to look carefully at the buildings. When Bull asked what she was looking for, expecting some wisdom, Nagayo told her “sometimes you can see people changing” and got a big laugh. Bull says that after that, she couldn’t help but look everytime they passed the same area “I got an eyeful”-Bull.

– Chigusa talks about how despite Bull’s fearsome image, she still mostly remembers her as a “soft hearted, chubby kid” from back in the day (Jab’s Notes: In a French documentary, Bull’s mother tells a story about dropping her problem child off at the dojo saying “I can’t do anything more with her” adding “plus, she was fat”). Chigusa says her most prominent memory of Bull is being at some random venue and seeing a teenaged Bull standing over the restroom sink, intently focused on shaving one side of her head with a razor. Chigusa was struck by the young wrestler’s dedication. Chigusa says that being a junior heel is difficult, because there’s a lot more work required as a second, and that she saw Bull cry more than once in the early days.

– Chigusa talks about her 1993 match with Bull during her comeback (Jab’s Notes: Dream Slam II- Chigusa’s second match in her return). She was worried that she wouldn’t be up to Bull’s level after 4 years off. They wax nostalgic about the match a bit, and Chigusa says that she was really impressed by Bull’s performance as a monster heel, and felt proud that Bull was carrying on the Zenjo tradition as a junior.

– They talk about Nagayo’s fractured relationship with Zenjo (Jab’s Notes: the nickname for All Japan Women’s Pro Wrestling- “ZEN” Nihon “JO”shi Puroresu). She says that there was some tension around her retirement, but that things soured further when Nagayo founded GAEA Japan in 1995. She was told by someone (-I think she said Zenjo trainer Kunimatsu Matsunaga, but not 100% sure) that she wouldn’t be able to train any good wrestlers, and that the Zenjo president was dismissive of her as a rival (“what are YOU gonna do?”) which of course motivated her to put everything she had into GAEA (spoiler: GAEA became their top rival within 2 years) (Jab’s Notes: Not only that, but GAEA became bigger than Zenjo, and nearly outlived it).

-They talk a bit about going to Zenjo president Takashi Matsunaga’s wake after his passing. Chigusa says that at that time, she knelt next to the coffin and apologized. Over the years, she had come to realize that the Matsunagas had made her everything she was as a pro, but they had never really buried the hatchet. Chigusa tells a long story full of twists and turns that I can’t hope to recap in detail here (Jab’s Notes: I’ve heard Chigusa is quite the babbler), but President Matsunaga had always wanted to run Yokohama Arena one more time, and this eventually became a goal of Nagayo’s as well – leading to the eventual founding of her current promotion/dojo Marvelous. If she can manage to fill up Yokohama Arena, she wonders if that could double as a proper memorial service for Mr. Matsunaga.

(Jab’s Notes: I find this bit very interesting. In my experience, it’s very rare for Japanese people to be forthright about their issues with others- especially a deceased person- given a cultural history with not rocking the boat and going with the group, and of course Chigusa here coming around to seeing his side of things and appreciating him is a perfect way to end such a potentially-scandalous or uncomfortable anecdote. And of course in real life, and with 20 years separating these things from today, the complexities are more apparent and a lot more insight can be granted)

– Chigusa says that when she decided to start Marvelous, she was also making the personal decision to do pro-wrestling for the rest of her life. Nagayo has trained male wrestlers, which Bull is flabbergasted by considering the strict “no boys” mantra of Zenjo (Jab’s Notes: No Smoking, No Drinking, No Boys- veterans of course freely ignored the first two at points). She asks if the co-mingling is an issue, and Chigusa replies that it’s not a problem, as “Our wrestlers are strong girls.” She puts over ace Takumi Iroha for being able to physically hang in the ring with any male wrestler, and that she has no problems with training men in the dojo.

– The first part ends with Chigusa telling a story about trying run a “Zenjo style” 2/3 falls 60 minute workrate tag with her students, and that it completely fell apart as the wrestlers started collapsing and hyperventilating. She feels that being able to go sixty minutes when needed is one of the marks of a top level pro-wrestler (Jab’s Notes: I feel like this is a thing in the west, too, and why guys like Flair are super-proud of their achievements on that front, and why both Bret & Shawn put over their Iron Man Match, while many fans dismiss it as too boring- Zenjo audiences often got SUPER appreciative of super-long matches, even if it was 20-minute rookie dropkick-fests).

– Bull starts out by asking how Crush Gals came to be. Chigusa says that she was considering quitting wrestling after an upcoming match against (Lioness) Asuka. She had been stuck in the undercard and didn’t feel like it was going anywhere. (“I felt like a discarded pawn”). Nagayo called a meeting with Asuka and basically told her to go hard, which she did. Chigusa says that they this impressed Kunimatsu Matsunaga (aka ref jimmy kayama) enough to put them together as a pushed tag team (Jab’s Notes: I’ve heard a lot that Zenjo was a bit of a meritocracy, or “effort”atocracy, and “going hard” got you noticed good and early- the Matsunagas all had a foundation on athletics). She says the original name for the team was “Queen Bee”. Chigusa says that she wanted to use “Crush Girls” but was told that it would never sell, but after some help from Mr. Ujie (longtime office) they conceded.

– They talk about Crush’s early popularity. Bull re-enacts a photo of Chigusa that got attention in the magazines at the time, and Chigusa waxes nostalgic about the first time she saw streamers being thrown for them. She was surprised, then looked up and there was a group of 10-15 schoolgirls at the top of the north side of Korakuen Hall throwing them. The realization that she actually had real fans was a turning point for her mentally. Bull talks about Crush working against Dynamite Girls (Jab’s Notes: Jumbo Hori & Yukari Omori) around the circuit, and remembers that when they came back to Korakuen the cheers had increased significantly for Crush. Chigusa says that a big part of her popularity surge was due to fans projecting themselves onto her.

– Chigusa says that adjusting to being in a tag team at first. Asuka was the power/cleanup partner, which meant Chigusa had to learn how to bump like a maniac without killing herself. The increased popularity led to an increased schedule, which meant over 300 matches a year, which Chigusa calls “insane.” (Jab’s Notes: Looking it up, the only company with a schedule as insane as that was the WWF, which was infamous in North America for it). She says that during their popularity boom, the main characters wasn’t Crush at all – it was the kids of the 80s that were sharing that moment together. She says that Crush, Gokuaku Domei (Jab’s Notes: Dump Matsumoto’s stable of vicious heels to represent the fans’ meanest bullies) and the fans formed a perfect pro-wrestling triangle of sorts.

– They talk about the singing aspect of Crush (Jab’s Notes: they sang and released albums and such). Chigusa says that she initially didn’t want to do it, as she considered herself a wrestler not a singer. The company cared little for her opinions on the matter, and off she went to the studio. The producer had worked with Pink Lady in the past, who were huge when Chigusa was in middle school. The notion that she could be the next Pink Lady changed her mind on the whole singing thing.

– Bull brings up the Crush breakup, when Asuka no longer wanted to do any singing performances. Chigusa says she would have been happy to keep on doing that stuff solo if needed, but in the end they were separated as the clock was ticking on their careers and they’d been a team for awhile. Nagayo says that people talk about their relationship (eg inferring that they dont get along) but that in reality they have a strong bond forged by going through that crazy time together.

– They close by talking a bit about getting Marvelous off the ground. Chigusa talks about Takumi Iroha’s transfer from Stardom. Nagayo says that she doesn’t mean to diss Stardom, but they aren’t a company with much in the way of “Zenjoism” (ie serious training) (Jab’s Notes: SHOTS FIRED! SHOTS FIRED! Moskow wrote it- not me!) so she had to completely retrain Takumi from the ground up. She says that she believes that working hard in training is critical for wrestlers to be able give the fans their hard-earned money’s worth. She says that simply being cute and learning some spots doesn’t capture the imagination of the people, nor make them fall in love with pro-wrestling.

(Jab’s Notes: That’s about as harsh as you’re going to see a pro wrestler from Japan be on that, re: Stardom’s training- reading between the lines it’s pretty damning of the Stardom style and what actual veterans think of it, but she’s careful to say she’s not trying to insult them… by saying one of their people needed to be completely retrained)

– They discuss the infamous Zenjo “rookie swimsuit” gear style, and Chigusa explains that it’s done this way to give their individual personalities more of a chance to stand out as newcomers (Jab’s Notes: Nowadays, I see new joshi wrestlers debuting in full costumes already). Chigusa closes by talking about how, due to the nature of the workouts, her trainees end up with average upper bodies but massively muscled legs, and imitates them walking around to pop Bull.

– Nagayo talks a bit about the nature of wrestling politics. They start by talking about people jumping promotions. Chigusa says that if someone wants to go, she thinks it’s better for everyone if they just go. These things can usually be worked out. She then gives an extended metaphor about warlords, fiefdoms etc that was sadly too much for me to keep up with. She basically says that everyone is constantly thinking of ways to improve their position, and that there are no completely selfless pro-wrestlers.

– They talk about her departure from Zenjo in 1989. Chigusa admits that she kayfabed her reasons for quitting at the time (eg the mandatory retirement at 25 rule was not discussed). She says that she was still going strong at the top of the card when suddenly she noticed her face getting smaller and smaller on the posters (Jab’s Notes: I’m reminded of the bit in “Almost Famous” where the lead singer notices that he’s smaller on the t-shirt than the charismatic guitarist, and points out that “The t-shirt is everything”. And he’s not really wrong, IMO). She asked the office what was going on, and the president told her that she was being demoted to “stepping stone” status (Jab’s Notes: I’ve heard this was an actual position in the roster and people hated being it. I’ve seen Suzuka Minami spend ages on it before “retiring”). Chigusa did not like this one bit, as one might expect. She says that the rule never made sense to her, since older pro-wrestlers can still be very effective. She was still in her early 20s and felt she had a lot more left to achieve.

– At this point she started enjoying wrestling less and less and considered quitting early. She says that she made up a story about wanting to get married in order to leave with a bang, which worked and her retirement match was set for Yokohama Arena. She says that after the match, President Matsunaga came to her and sincerely thanked her for everything. Chigusa was moved by this, and thanked him for letting her become a pro-wrestler, to which the president replied “you made 200 million yen tonight!”, referencing the gate from the retirement show. (the joke being that she was getting in her feels while this was what he was actually thanking her for). She goes back to talking about Mr. Matsunaga’s dying wish for her to run Yokohama Arena – she says that maybe the 200 million yen was the reason he was so keen to run there again, but that realistically, the era where that was possible has most likely passed (Jab’s Notes: Stardom, the biggest Joshi company by far, does fairly small houses).

– Chigusa says that the happiest memories of her 40+ year career have been watching the debut matches of wrestlers she’s trained. She says she’s literally cried tears of joy on several such occasions. She says that seeing someone that came to her totally clueless standing in the ring for the first time, terrified but hopeful, is what wrestling is about for her. She mentions a time that a junior wrestler without much money bought her some fancy flowers for mother’s day. She talks about how the image of rookies taking their pro-tests, where they’re fighting with themselves to get to pushup #50 and succeeding, is what keeps her going.

(Jab’s Notes: Moskow adds later: “I also never fully realized how much Chigusa tends to ramble on with her stories until I was doing this haha. Bull had to get her back on track a few times.”)

This was great stuff overall- Chigusa seems interesting and like her mind is going a million miles a minute. The whole retirement thing here is fascinating and is both contrary to the usual “the mandatory retirement rule ruins joshi!” stuff I heard while also kind of contributing to it because Chigusa was being put out to pasture in her own mind, being turned into the “Suzuka Minami Role”. I can see why she’d cut out early if that was the case, rather than fart around in that role for a couple of years, though it probably costs her some money.

So let me know how you all liked this one! It’s good to fill some time and I find it very interesting stuff. And thanks Moskow for recapping all this!