JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN:
* So these two were paired up a LOT over the years, but rarely with a long-term feud from what I remember. And I went and found TEN different matches just on YouTube to review, after someone suggested following my Kidman/Psychosis one to try Juvi as well.
So Kidman was the resident low Cruiserweight on the totem pole in 1996-97, but joined the Flock late that year and got a micro-push as a rising star with some potential, constantly scratching himself (in what was a reference to heroin addicts, but this was lost on me and the commentators, who figured it was a reference to him being dirty and greasy). But Kidman got a rocket push in the division later in 1998 after the Flock split up.
Juventud meanwhile was “the guy who loses to Rey Mysterio” for a long time, and did the classic “win some, then lose some” non-push WCW always gave guys, but got a big run with Chris Jericho in early 1998 that made him a star at the expense of his mask. By late ’98, both guys were credible Cruiserweight Champions, and during their whole run they were often thrown out there on TV to have a good match.
This set becomes an interesting look at how guys repeat spots consistently in all their contests, likely having watched their past stuff or having a pre-existing plan. In this case, watch for them doing a spot in the corner where Juvi gets backdropped or suplexed to the apron but either punches Kidman or pulls him down by the hair, then hits a flying move. Also, Juvi flinging himself backwards legs-first right into a wheelbarrow German suplex, and landing on his feet when Kidman tries to German or powerbomb him.
Juvi’s big moves are the Juvi Driver (Michinoku Driver- a sit-out bodyslam) and 450 Splash (then one of the most eye-popping moves in the world- even now the torque he gets on it is insane- guys today are more “floaty” and don’t really hit with any force). Kidman’s are the Sit-Out Powerbomb (from lifting the guy at the chest like D’Lo Brown did) and Shooting Star Press (called the “Seven Year Itch” as a heel).
JUVENTUD GUERERA vs. BILLY KIDMAN:
(WCW Nitro, Aug. 26th 1996)
* This is the somewhat infamous WCW debut of Juventud thanks to the promo he cuts after the match. Here he’s wrestling Jobber Kidman, both guys already in the ring- Juvi’s in purple/orangey-pink, and Kidman’s in red tights with his hair cut super-short. Juventud gets almost no introduction aside from that his name means “Youth Warrior” and that he’s a high-flier. And they actually OPENED Nitro with this.
They start off with an International into Kidman’s powerslam for two, then Kidman cross-bodies Juvi against the ropes to put them both on the floor. They fight on the apron and Juvi does a super shitty awkward roll around Kidman’s body into a friggin’ sunset flip powerbomb off the apron (insane offense for 1996), then follows with a pescado legdrop on the floor, then a springboard corkscrew splash for two. Juvi springboards again but gets powerbombed for two, and Kidman follows with a slingshot legdrop and a vertical suplex. Kidman hits his Shooting Star Press… for two? Haha he wasn’t even having it protected then? Juvi catches him up top this time and takes forever to set up a Super Hurricanrana for the pin at (4:11). Just non-stop highspots for a 4-minute match.
And then, for some reason, Mean Gene comes in to do an in-ring promo despite Juvi’s lack of English speaking skills- he sets it up so the fans know this ahead of time, and Juvi briefly starts in English before slipping into a Spanish rant that earns boos from the Atlanta crowd- Gene tries to bring it back after Juvi says he’s the best wrestler in Mexico, and Juvi just gets the mic back and rambles a bit before Gene just gives up and says “You’re gonna have to give it a rest”. This had bad idea written all over it- Gene kinda tried his best but knew it was gonna fly off the rails and pretty much called it. I think Meltzer shit on Mean Gene for this bit, but hey, what was HE gonna do? Dude’s been in the business long enough to know when something’s about to be an all-time bad segment with a flustered 21-year old in front of a live crowd, ya know?
Rating: 3/4* (just “two guys doin’ stuff” in a spotfest full of finisher-tier moves almost immediately- like, why is a jobber in the opener eating a sunset flip powerbomb to the floor and it means little to the match?)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN:
(WCW Saturday Night, Nov. 15th 1997)
* A Saturday Night match featuring Juvi (in red & green) against the Flock’s Kidman, who comes out solo, though Raven’s watching in the crowd.
Kidman jumps Juvi to start, but takes a wheel kick & headscissors, then catching him with a wheelbarrow suplex. Kidman sails to the floor and gets headscissored out there, but Juvi runs into a Ligerbomb. Kidman slowly covers for two, hits a slingshot legdrop, then stomps and chokes away to kill some time, then Juvi kicks him out of a chinlock only for them to botch something (looks like it was gonna be a front suplex but Juvi landed on his feet and Kidman just rolled him over for some improv punches). Juvi lands on his feet from a powerbomb and slugs away in the corner, then pops up with a springboard dropkick, but Kidman his a powerslam for two. Crazy spot as Kidman gets crotched on the top rope and Juventud pops up and spins around for a sunset flip powerbomb for two (that looked an INSTANT away from a huge botch). Juvi goes up to finish but flies off right into a dropkick… and Kidman PINS HIM with the Seven Year Itch at (5:23). Holy hell, they were letting Flock Kidman pin guys already?
Rating: *1/2 (pretty basic match with some time-wasting and random stuff, but then they start flinging counters at each other and do lots of big moves in hopes of getting noticed)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN (w/ Lodi):
(WCW Thunder, Feb. 5th 1998)
* It’s Masked Juvi vs. Flock Kidman, just to set the era. Kidman at this point is a “JTTS but with potential” and pushed like it. Juvi’s in purple.
They start with a slapfest into Juvi’s spinning headscissors, only for him to try it again and Kidman hoist him into a crazy Inverted Ligerbomb! Things kinda break down as they’re not sure what to do out of a rope-run as Kidman appears to be aiming for an inverted suplex and is looking away when Juvi pops into a regular suplex grip, and only then gets reversed with an inverted suplex move that puts him on the apron, where he hits a springboard dropkick. Juvi then leaps off the top for a Rana off the apron into Lodi, putting all three guys down! Juvi recovers from the bump but lands on his ass trying a springboard legdrop. Kidman just throws punches and misses his avalanche so Juvi hits him with a Super Frankensteiner for two. Kidman is the next one to try a move of course, but gets caught with a Northern Lights suplex for two, and Juvi hits the Juvi Driver… but Lodi hits the apron and Juvi missile dropkicks him off instead. Kidman immediately springs to life and hits a slingshot bulldog into the Seven Year Itch for the win at (4:44), in a big upset, especially as Juvi is getting a Cruiserweight Title shot in a few weeks.
haha, such a MOVEZ-fest. Like Kidman’s first thing is a crazy inverted Ligerbomb, then there’s two springboards, ranas off the apron and top rope, etc. And in five minutes! They spent a bit too much time on a lot of these, Kidman holding Juvi up repeatedly to ensure safer landings. Then you have Kidman just springing up totally fine from all sorts of moves like a Super Rana and then a Juvi Driver- it’s five minutes of a match and they shoved like 6 finishers in there, none of them sold for long.
Rating: *3/4 (some impressive movez but holy crap, SELL!)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN (w/ Lodi):
(WCW Thunder, Feb. 19th 1998)
* Only a couple weeks later, we get a rematch. Juvi will lose the mask in only three days to Chris Jericho, making this his last TV appearance wearing it. He’s got a yellow one this time.
They reverse whips, won by Juvi with a headscissors, then comes off the top with a Flying Hurricanrana for two, Kidman making the ropes. Juvi ends up eating a wheelbarrow suplex as Lee Marshall posits (incorrectly) that he would have to give up his name if he was unmasked, but manages a Manami Roll up Kidman’s chest and ranas him to the floor. He goes for a dive but gets tripped up by Lodi, but moves out of the way so Kidman pescadoes him! Juvi lands on him from a suplex into the ring in an ugly spot, then lands on his feet from a German and hits a spinkick. Kidman pulls him into the corner, but Juventud quickly hits the Juvi Driver and finishes with the 450 Splash at (3:20). But then Chris Jericho runs in and unmasks him like a dick! He parades around the mask, only for Juvi to reveal a second mask underneath, and dropkick Jericho into a comedy bump (hanging upside-down against the ropes).
This was a pretty good “Showcase Juvi” match, as he hits three variations of the headscissors for his first three moves, bumps around a bit, hits a bunch more flashy stuff, and largely does all the offense of the match, giving Kidman nothing. Which is funny because 2 weeks earlier he lost a match despite hitting a ton of finisher-tier moves.
Rating: *1/2 (pretty well a squash, but some great Juventud offense)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN:
(WCW Monday Nitro, April 27th 1998)
* Two months later and they’re fighting on Nitro– Juvi’s now maskless in black & purple gear.
Juvi with the headscissors & wheel kick right away for two, then climbs up for some punches, but they mis-time Kidman doing a Flair Uppercut as Juvi’s in mid-punch. Kidman gets his Sit-Out Spinebuster from the second rope for two. He can’t follow-up and itches himself before missing his slingshot legdrop, and they do the inverted suplex reversal spot again, Juvi hitting a slingshot cross-body from that. Juvi does the Eddie bump and gets clotheslined, but drops Kidman crotch-first on the top and hits a rana while Kidman’s balanced there for two. Juvi Driver & 450 Splash finish at (3:54). The Flock runs in for the mass beat-down after the bell, Juvi eating Reese’s Double-Chokeslam finisher.
Rating: * (super-pedestrian match for them- no real flow and just random stuff for a short match and a basic reversal finish)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN (w/ Lodi):
(WCW Thunder, May 28th 1998)
* One month later we get another match, this time with a maskless Juvi. Kidman’s still in the same role. Juvi’s been having an issue with Reese lately, apparently.
They paintbrush each other to start, but Juvi jumps into the sit-out spinebuster. Juvi gets a monster clothesline and rips his shirt off, then hits a fantastic spinning headscissors and the mother of all dives, just SAILING over the top rope to the floor. Back in but Kidman hits the X-Factor thanks to Lodi’s distraction and goes nuts with boots and stomps, really angling for a push here. Juvi manages a sunset flip but Kidman hits an AMAZING dropkick that all three commentators mark out for, just spearing him down. Juvi fires up but gets drilled by a clothesline and dumped, then hits a slingshot legdrop as they diss his tactics- the lariat was good but he didn’t go for any covers and wasted time. Juvi dodges a dive into the corner, but he charges into a powerslam and Kidman flat-faces, too. He manages a two-count and chokes Juvi with his shin, looking super pissed. He puts his head down early but avoids a Juvi Driver, bringing Juvi to the apron for their usual spot, and eats a flying wheel kick for a count so close the fans boo what was probably a botch (Mickey Jay slapped the mat a third time). Kidman hits a weird move that looks oddly like Juvi was using Kidman’s own powerbomb reversal but faceplanting him (probably the “Juvi lands on his feet from it” move they do in all the other matches). That gets two, and he flips Juvi on a German suplex and climbs, but Juvi dropkicks him in on the way down. And the Juvi Driver/450 Splash gets the win at (9:06)- man, Kidman made him WORK for that one!
Very solid “they’re even” match, with each guy getting a ton of near-falls and good reversals- I always remember how much more counter-based WCW’s style was than the WWF’s by this point, with guys often having counters for nearly everything while the WWF-style was all about the “spin them around and kick them in the gut” thing, which was pretty low-grade and repetitive. Watch stuff here like Kidman countering a Juvi Driver with an inverted suplex, but Juvi landing on his feet on the apron instead, or the anti-air dropkick- stuff WWF almost never did. And check Kidman’s intensity here- he gets a babyface turn and the Cruiserweight Title in only four months from here, and stuff like this is probably what brought him that far- a vicious beatdown, lots of choking and cheating, and really aggressive stuff that made him look like he WANTS THAT WIN, seething at the referee on every kickout. I like how they had a lot of near-falls but off of things like flying kicks and lariats instead of just hitting finisher-tier killshots on each other for 2.9 until all the moves were dead- here, when the real finisher hit, that was the ballgame.
Rating: ***1/4 (very kick-ass match that got a lot of time)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN (w/ Lodi):
(WCW Thunder, June 11th 1998)
* Mere weeks later, it’s time for another match! This sets up Juvi vs. Reese at the Great American Bash, coming up.
Juvi wins a running contest with his headscissors as Lee Marshall describes Reese as “That BIG GARBOON” in some shockingly filthy language, but Lodi saves Kidman from a pescado. Juvi’s so messed up Kidman’s able to hit his running Seven Year Itch off the apron (I remember my friend’s brother’s girlfriend randomly seeing a match with that and freaking out 25 years ago- “that was so cool!”). He puts his feet on the ropes and gets caught (Heenan says it’s because the boots are too long and “that always happened to me, too”), then does a LONG chinlock spot (oh, it’s Thunder alright), and Juvi reverses an inverted suplex and slugs him down. Kidman does the wheelbarrow suplex spot, then the corner-fight spot and hits a flying wheel kick (ie. ass to the face) for two. Juvi runs into the powerslam for two and the Sit-Out Spinebuster gets two for Kidman. Juvi lands on his feet from a German and hits the Juvi Driver into the 450 Splash for the win at (7:08).
Rating: *3/4 (a very long, slow version of their regular match, with just a few differences)
WCW CRUISERWEIGHT TITLE:
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN:
(WCW Monday Nitro, Sept. 14th 1998)
* We hit Fall 1998 as Kidman is just starting his major push, now wearing the white shirt and shorts, with no theme music, his hair slicked back, and no itching. Everyone in the Flock has JUST quit on Raven earlier in the night, so he’s getting a few cheers right now. Juvi is the current champion and is super-hyper- Kaz Hayashi was supposed to be challenging but was injured.
Kidman pounces immediately and gets some approval from the fans, then gets blasted down after a reversal sequence. Juvi with the hairpull in the corner and a missile dropkick and Larry Z actually does a good job putting over how “He could be thirty feet away from the ring and not be safe from JUVI”. Kidman with a slingshot headscissors from the apron and a powerslam into a cradle gets two. They both counter corner moves and Juvi sends them both to the floor with a cross-body- back from break with Kidman in control, and he clobbers Juvi and hits the slingshot legdrop. Juvi lands on his feet from a German attempt but charges right into the Sit-Out Powerbomb for a CLOSE call. Juvi tries a counter but leaps into the wheelbarrow suplex again- he’s dead, Kidman going for pins twice. Kidman keeps pounding away, but Juvi Germans him out of a vertical suplex attempt. Flying rana gets two and they’re getting frustrated, and the Juvi Driver… countered to an inverted suplex! 2.8 and the crowd freaks! Kidman has him, but goes up for the SSP and gets crotched. Juvi hits a Super Rana, but takes way too long on the 450 Splash and Kidman’s up, so Juvi leaps off… into the Sit-Out Powerbomb! And Kidman sets him up as the entire crowd stands, and… Shooting Star Press! Kidman is the new Champion at (10:42)!! Big-time Nitro moment and his first reign!
Now THIS was awesome stuff- Kidman having a star-making performance and both guys selling generously and doing everything they can to pin the other guy. You could see the frustration on them as they were pulling out all the stops and reversals they could think of to score the win, and the crowd was buying it- you know you have them when an INVERTED SUPLEX draws a huge reaction and an “OHHHH!!!” for the kickout and people shaming the ref.
Rating: ***3/4 (a fantastic TV match and one of those ways Nitro could still beat RAW)
The WCW World War 3 set-up.
WCW CRUISERWEIGHT TITLE:
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN:
(WCW World War 3, Nov. 22nd 1998)
* Juventud had just beaten Kidman the Nitro before this, and this is the rematch. Juventud, in all purple, comes out with an LWO shirt, Eddie declaring him a member- Rey Mysterio Jr. comes out and is furious, as Eddie was harrassing him to join and isn’t giving him the title shot. This has three rings, being WW3’s set-up, with the rings being corner-to-corner but with about half of each ring touching.
They trade shots to start, and Juvi actually nails the rocker dropper out of the counter that’s usually a “you flip the over guy onto his feet” spot. Juvi with the headscissors but he brags and ends up running into the Sit-Out Powerbomb early on! Powerslam into a slingshot legdrop gets two, but Juvi gets a spinebuster and a lazy cover. Kidman counters a whip with that WCW “Bret bump to a monster lariat”- Kidman stops a tornado DDT so Juvi just cranks his neck on the top rope, but flies off into Kidman’s anti-air dropkick! Kidman stomps away and pescadoes him, but isn’t really showing much emotion (he just kinda robotically goes from spot to spot once he gets going, doing nothing but leaning on the ropes or slicking his hair back while thinking about his next spot, even during things like beatdowns and pescadoes). Kidman fights him out there, but Juvi comes off with a flying rana off the apron. They milk that a while and Juvi hits a big brainbuster for two, and Juvi stays on him, doing their corner spot into a springboard dropkick, then hits a springboard plancha to the floor. Slingshot legdrop gets two for Juvi, and he tosses Kidman into the next ring and hits a double-springboard dropkick (slipping on the last but managing a gutshot) for two as they’re just fighting in that ring now (you can DO that?). Juvi’s doing the “what does it TAKE?” thing in the corner, which Heenan puts over, and Kidman surprises him with a backdrop into a rock bottom for two.
Juvi dodges a corner charge but gets crotched up top and Kidman headscissors him from the top into the other ring! Flying cross-body from Ring 2 into Ring 1 for two and the fans boo the kickout! Kidman charges but gets backdropped into gutting himself on Ring 3’s top rope, then Juvi puts him on top and springboards from Ring 1 into a Super Rana off Ring 3’s top rope… for two! Juvi Driver to inverted suplex… to a Juvi Driver! And both are down- Juvi’s slow to get up and goes for the 450, but Kidman dodges- Juvi lands on his feet and hits a rana for a close call! He freaks on the ref and goes for a powerbomb and for the first time in this series KIDMAN DOES THE THING! Kidman gets two off his counter, then they do the “counters Juvi to a wheelbarrow suplex” spot, but Juvi crotches him on the SSP attempt. But Juvi tries another Super Rana and Rey sneaks in to grab Kidman’s jorts- Juvi splats and Kidman hits the Shooting Star Press for the Cruiserweight Title at (15:26)! The entire LWO hits the ring and Eddie demands Rey’s answer, and Rey chucks the LWO shirt at him and bails, as Kidman’s win is already ignored for an angle featuring unrelated guys.
Another great effort from these two, as they go all-out and actually USE ALL THREE RINGS, performing some moves that could only be done at this show. The same frustration as the Nitro match is being shown here, especially from Juventud, though Kidman hit most of his big stuff early and wasn’t landing the same quality nearfalls by the end of the match (this is where his later-era moves like the Kid Krusher would have come in handy). Plus the move application was a lot more loosey-goosey and things weren’t going as flush, probably due to the extended match time. So with an extra five minutes over the previous match they still only about the same rating, and the cheating finish kind of hurts (it’s not even heel comeuppance- Juvi had never CHEATED to earn that!), and Kidman usually has a bit of a “cap” on his best stuff (part of it is he has no charisma and tends to just blankly hit all his shit without any character to it- Dude hits this big multi-stomp beatdown and kinda climbs the ropes to yell but doesn’t even look at the fans and mostly just walks around wiping his forehead or slicking back his hair), but all in all it was very good. Just… fairly flat beyond the cool movez and counters (I always like WCW’s counter-heavy style).
The funny thing is I was thinking it was like **** and did the unusual thing of checking other reviews (I rarely do that, and I wonder why I was interested here), which were much more negative. Re-watching it without recapping, I kind of see what they’re thinking… it’s a bit blank as a match because their characters aren’t into it as much, and they’re just “doing stuff” at points. I think maybe my recappy nature and the “stop to write down what happened” thing made me miss some of the flow, which wasn’t great.
It’s funny but I checked out other reviews and it’s 50/50 that people are surprisingly harsh on the rana to the floor, some calling it a “botch” even though Juvi pretty clearly deliberately took the bump to the apron so he wouldn’t murder himself 1/3 into the 15 minute match. His foot clipped the ropes but it didn’t change the bump Kidman took. I’ve seen the match called a spotfest and that’s from the stuff they’re pulling, but as most of it’s from counters that look very “in the moment” I don’t mind it, AND they’re also selling each move and acting like they’re tired and needing to get a second wind for everything. But I dunno- I’m irked that it seemed so much weaker with a second look and knowing the finish- I want everyone to look this one up on YouTube and tell me what they thought of it, lol. I need to know!
Rating: ***1/2 (excellent use of time and great counters and stuff from both guys- a bit blank character-wise and not as much flow)
JUVENTUD GUERRERA vs. KIDMAN:
(WCW Saturday Night, July 24th 1999)
* WCW’s in its dying days at this point, but Kidman was made as a top Cruiserweight guy and is quite over at this point, with his white shirt and jorts. Juvi’s now a heel.
They do a ton of posing for the fans to start (Juvi shaking his ass as his heel go-to), then a ton of whip reversals, Kidman winning with a hiptoss sit-out slam. Juvi teases taking a walk to kill a ton of time, then counters Kidman suplexing him back in and drops him on the top rope. Missile dropkick puts Kidman on the floor and Juvi follows with a pescado as Hudson declares that they’ve both “been going NON-STOP”. Juvi with the spinning headscissors then a weird fireman’s spindrop and he flies off the top onto Kidman’s feet. He wins a fight in the corner but flies off into Kidman’s dropkick, and the sit-out powerbomb gets two. They again do the “powerbomb counter to landing on feet from a German” spot into the Juvi Driver, but this time Kidman crotches him up top and hits the Shooting Star Press for the pin at (7:27), winning fairly.
Rating: ** (very much the “Saturday Night Slacking” formula with lots of crowd stuff and teases, but they hit a few good things at the end)
And that’s it! There’s a few more matches they fought, but this was what I could find right away- crazy that WCW just trotted these two out there again and again for “filler” matches so many times. Watching them do that apron spot in every single match was pretty funny, as was the noticeable “effort shift” between Thunder to Saturady Night.